Just thought I'd throw this one out there...
Have you noticed an increase in apostasy amongst your peers?
I have now seen three couples leave the church for doctrine related issues (polygamy and DNA to name a few) over the last little while. It's interesting sociologically...and perhaps to me has something to do with the number of historical arguments that are now emerging.
- Nicko
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52 comments:
I've seen most of my friends disappear from church more because of laziness/indifference/apathy than doctrinal reasons or historically challenging incidents.
In recent months though, I've known of two previously "rock-solid" couples who left the church because of polygamy issues surrounding Joseph Smith's life.
The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR) - http://www.fairlds.org/ - often has excellent articles that speak to such topics. In my experience though, people who determine to leave the church over such issues are surprisingly closed to evidence that balances the anti-mormon perspective.
Another general comment: I believe that the blame for apostatising is placed upon polygamy or whatever, but this is used to mask a deeper question of commitment and conversion.
I agree 100% with justin.
I know this seems a little back to basics but, If you have a testimony of the BoM then any other issue is merely something that you can work out.
I know personally that if I ever have issues arise that cause me concern I read the BoM and have the spirit testify that this is true. And using the good old BoM link, therefore this is God's Church on the Earth.
It seems to good to be true, but that is why I love the gospel. It is simple and easy for everyone to follow.
I am deeply saddened when I meet those that once had a testimony to find out that they have fallen away and try to rationalize it with some academic argument (that is without merit) yet will not simply turn to the Lord for guidance.
I agree with Andrew and Justin on this issue.
To open a can of worms though...
I have never known anyone that has been excommunicated for apostacy, but known plenty of former members that have had their names removed from church records for various reasons (including my father).
How would you prove a charge of apostacy against member???
Typically a charge of apostasy that results in excommunication from the church will be a result of not just "falling away from truth" but also attempting to lead others away too.
I did a quick search and found the following authors who are just a couple of examples of where such has happened.
Maxine Hanks (Women and Authority: Re-emerging Mormon Feminism)
Paul Toscano (Strangers in Paradox: Explorations in Mormon Theology)
D. Michael Quinn (The New Mormon History: Revisionist Essays on the Past), and
Lavina Fielding Anderson (Religion, Feminism and Freedom of Conscience)
These writers were excommunicated as "the direct result of these writers' publications and of the papers and articles preliminary to them.
Typically then, they'll be intellectuals who create something of a following and attempt to tear the church down because of a real or imagined offence against them.
I'll follow the established trend, and agree with everything that's been said!
I certainly have noticed an increase in people falling away, and as Nick suggested, I think it's directly related, on a surface level, to the dissemenation of more information on Mormon history, through both books and the internet. But, as a few of you have noted, I think there's more to it. In each case I'm aware of, there are other reasons that the people fell away also (eg, bad experiences, not getting the callings they wanted). I think being that people cite problems with church history because they think it gives their decision to leave, which at a deeper level stems from some other problem, a veneer of respectability.
And I've also found, like a few of you, an unwillingness amongst these people to look at pro-LDS counter arguments to what they discover (such as those found on FAIRS, which I thank Justin again for recommending to me some years ago).
I prefer to go to FARMS over FAIR but like what it stands for. I'd like to be contrary and suggest that it isn't always about commitment issues or anything, sometimes people get genuinely concerned about stuff they hear. Polygamy for some is a real touche subject and there has been some real mormon myths perpetuated about it to try and 'ease' the tension I suppose. The whole, 'it was instituted to look after single women' really does go around doesn't it? When members find out that perhaps this wasn't the case at all, they tend to get slightly scared and take time out. Once the seeds of doubt are placed, rationalisation takes over and some lose their way.
I like Andrew, always find myself referring to the BoM..Plus I've had I guess some quite stark spiritual experiences that can't be rationalised away nor rationally explained.
I can't say that I have noticed an increase in apostasy. Of the people I know who have left the church only one claims "further enlightenment" as her reason, and she became a born again Christian.
I tend to agree with the idea that there is a deeper reason behind - such as a lack of testimony, conviction or conviction. Blaming something historical provides useful cover.
In a previous post the subject of bishops being released and subsequently struggling was brought up. Among my peers there were several who fell away from the church on return home from their mission. And they were all missionaries who had been spiritual powerhouses, who had amazing experiences serving in the field.
The LDS church provides so much scriptural insight and doctrine that it really is the complete gospel. Something I have always found hard to understand is how after being a member in this church, and understanding the scriptures to there full extent as well as the plan of salvation and the purpose of the atonement, could somebody ever be spiritually satisfied as a member of another religion.
I mean I could not even imagine siting in another church on Sunday listening to a minister/priest putting his spin on a scripture and just taking what he says on its face. Or belonging to a church (like many I have met) that only believe most of the teachings of their church.
I can only think of two plausible reasons for this.
1. They never really understood the teachings of the church - My problem here is that some of these people were members for so long it is hard to fathom; or
2. There testimony has laxed to the point were it is easier to find a religion that fits your lifestyle, then try and conform to something they are not sure is true anymore.
I would be interested in anybody else's comments.
(Ah, just believe and be saved, wouldn't that be nice) :)
Yeah, I'm exactly the same Andrew. It's truly puzzling when I hear an ex-LDS is a faithful member of another religion. I don't have any better reasons than those you've proposed. I do know one guy who firmly fits into the 2nd category - he said he likes his Christian church because he doesn't get a hard time, or feel as guilty, about smoking. But he told me one Sunday his minister criticised the LDS church, and he got up and set the minister straight, which I found amusing.
Yeah I tend to agree..people who leave and join other religions seem so fleeting. Most I find end up in the born again trend...perhaps because of the ease it accommodates the consciousness. One Postmormon I spoke to once said that the problem with the church is that its too anxiety provoking....I'd prefer to be like that that living in sublime sin.
I still believe that in some way, some people learning the 'truth' about certain aspects of our history find it difficult to deal with. Let's be honest here, Polygamy as it was instituted is hard to swallow unless you can truly appreciate the gospel for what it is. I agree however, it does stink of a lack of testimony...or perhaps a lack of spiritual experiences to lean back on.
Whenever I feel like the gospel doubts are coming, I'm lucky to remember some very stark experiences which signify to me that the church is true.
Well, Let me, a real live apostate...aire my thoughts on this topic.
I was an off the chart active temple going, former bishopric, high council, mission AP member of the church. I was NOT fleeting or seeking some excuse to leave the church. We were not offended, we do not seek excuses to go inactive.
Do you really think those who have left the church are that shallow? Do you really think we would give up our eternal salvation over such petty things as the church claims?
I absolutely loved the LDS Church. I loved the culture, I loved the people, I loved and looked up to the GA’s as examples to base my life on and I loved the comfort that I had the TRUTH. I could with an aire of confident pride look at my fellow man and feel sadness and compassion for their lack of belief in accepting Mormonism’s truth. I took comfort in knowing that I was not just another human being walking blindly on the face of the earth... I knew who I was; I was a Child of God... a God in embryo. Yeah, I bought the “Snake Oil” and all its promises of families being together forever.... eternal marriage.... Godhood...eternal progress...That’s what makes it hurt so much even today. To discover the lies, the whitewashing, and the glorification of history to make it more spiritually uplifting, to have been taught the foundational stories as the church wanted its history to have played out rather than how it actually did play out.... I feel lied to and deceived by the very people I had placed such total confidence in. They lied to me and continue to lie to promote their agenda of belief. But belief in lies is just a false hope.
Coming to the realization that the LDS Church is not what it calms to be…has been the most painful experience of my life…Discovering that the church of my birth, has lied about its foundational claims…is more than I care to bare. Yet the facts that lead me to this conclusion seem beyond reproach. I just could not fake belief any longer;
I couldn't hold the pieces of the puzzle together in my head any longer. Much like the Dutch boy with his fingers in the dike holding back the flood. I had been plugging the many conflicts in my faith in Mormonism since my mission and the dam finally broke.
I couldn't hold all the conflicting so called truths…one must be true while the other false. They can’t both be true. I have to be real!
Mormonism is amazing to me in that regard...its ability to get its "knowledgeable" members to ignore credible yet conflicting information and maintain these conflicting bits of information in their head while still being able to maintain faith in the church. God bless em I say ...I just couldn't lie to myself any longer. I no longer had the ability to maintain the cognitive dissonance.
Gordon B. Hinckley and many others have said that the church is either the truth or it’s a fraud...its either what it claims to be or it isn't. The fact that the church needs to lie, cover-up, whitewash,doctor and change its history and foundational stories in order to make them more faith promoting, finally collapsed what faith I still had remaining. I asked myself.... Would Jesus need to lie to support belief in Him? I answered that by saying NO, He wouldn't need to lie...which begs the question...then why would HIS church need to lie?
But most active Mormon’s won't expose themselves to the conflicting information.....it’s just too painful. My dear wife, , whom I love to death...barely listens to anything I have to say on the subject. I have no credibility with her. I have broken her heart...in so many ways, but I couldn't live a lie any longer. I refuse to live a lie for anyone.
The church may be the greatest thing ever invented…but if it was invented…and its not what it claims to be, then I want nothing to do with it
The average run of the mill active believing member of the church won't listen to reason....they have been so conditioned by the church that they won’t listen to alternative ideas when they come in conflict with the church’s version of foundational claims.
Questioning is not encouraged…if in so doing it questions faith in official stories. Even when confronted with factual documented proof...active members discard it as anti-Mormon falsehoods. How do I know this...that description used to be me.
My ah hah moment was when I finally decided that I had to know the truth no matter what the consequences...When I allowed myself to search for the truth even at the cost of my faith...it was over. The truth won out. I didn't like the truth...the truth was extremely painful, but I couldn't deny it either…the evidence is overwhelming.
I have no agenda against the church...you won't find me at conference holding up signs promoting what I’ve discovered... I just want to live an honest life and be the best person, husband, father I can be….
One thing I’ve learned through this process of discovery is that it is not possible to accept reality unless you are willing to accept the remote possibility that the church may not be what it claims to be. If you can't accept that possibility...then you will never accept reality when it comes to the church claims.
Hello Cr@ig (interesting name),
Thankyou for your comments. I think that many here would disagree with what you and the postmormon group claim when it comes to truth and why people leave the church, but I think we can be pleasant about our disagreements.
Personally I come from the other end of the spectrum. I joined the church in 1997 after years of questioning life and what it was designed for. I often claimed that Mormonism was entirely obnoxious and self-indulging with the claim to being the 'only true and living church'. BUT...
After investigating the BoM as many here have, I came to realise both intellectually and spiritually that the blue book is of God. Not only is it entirely irrational to suggest that JS could have written it as I once did, it also caused a change in my heart which is above and beyond anything that I can creatively articulate into words here.
My point isn't to disenchant anything you've experienced in your leaving the church, but to suggest that the corner stone of our faith is the BoM...and I find and have continually found reasons to keep believing it is true.
As for the other historical things which you refer to, these things are secondary to the claim of the BoM. IS it true or not? What is your claim on this book?
It's very easy to sit in my "comfy chair" and make comments. I am one who does not take my testimony of the restoration for granted. I read my scriptures (almost) daily, pray several times a day, pore over General Conference, and serve.
Those I know who have left the church did none of those things with full purpose of heart. When we do those things, we feel the Spirit more. And perhaps most important, we feel His departure when we stumble across anything unaligned with Gospel & Church prinicples.
There are deep, dark, unhappy, unimaginable incidents that have occurred in the history of the LDS church. Some have occurred with the sanction of leaders, some have involved said leaders. Some I understand at least superficially, some I may never understand in any way.
But deep in my heart I have felt the Spirit tell me the Church is true, prophets are on the earth, and scripture is still being revealed. All this in addition to the knowledge God lives and His Son is my Saviour.
When I hear people deny any, or all, of the above and they have been strong members of the church I think to myself a couple of things - closely aligned with what Andrew (above) stated.
First, they never really felt the Spirit and gained a testimony. This is typically not true, which means:
Second, they felt the Spirit but did not "continue in the right way". They were not continually nourishing and feeding themselves the good word of God. They did not hold to the rod of iron. I believe that many fall into this trap. They feel that all is well in Zion, forgetting that, as President Eyring said some years ago, "Faith has a short shelf life" and we need to constantly replenish it. But still others fall into a third category.
Third, they practice the art of self-deception. The modern psychological literature speaks often on the topic of the way we justify our actions, who we are, and what we do. If I come across something that tells me that Joseph Smith was immorally polygamous and it offends me to the point that I want to leave the church, then I have to make some weighty decisions to justify my actions. I have to negate the deep spiritual feelings I've had previously, and put them down to being "emotional" and "caught up in the moment". Then I can say that my testimony was built on a false foundation and walk away easier.
I am sure that those who have chosen to leave the church will argue that they have done the right thing. That is precisely my point. We, as humans, rationalise our actions when they do not meet the standards that we have been taught. To rationalise means we tell "rational lies", and they are so rational that we actually believe them.
To the charge that the church covers things up - i disagree. All the information is there for those who look. But milk comes before meat. We teach people what they need to know. Then as they become more spiritually mature they obtain greater knowledge. I would never have done university level statistics, or studied for a PhD if I knew at the start what I would have to do. It would overwhelm me, even if I had felt that it was good and right. But as I grew into it, I knew the answers would come. So too with church history and doctrine. Too much too soon is overwhelming.
Nicko sugggested that it is "irrational to suggest that JS could have written it" REALLY?
I guess it is "rational" to believe that Joseph took a rock he found while digging a well for his neighbor, Willard Chase, placed it in his hat and translated golden plates that were hidden outside in a tree stump that had been given to him by a dead WHITE Indian that had lived somewhere (no one can really say where) on the American Continent describing a civilzation that left not one single piece of evidence of its existance...not a coin, not a garbage heap, foundation, nor a sword from its many battles...nothing nadda siltch. Belief in Mormonism requires irrationality...it require the suspention of disbelief...In fact the only RATIONAL thing to conclude is that Joseph DID write the Book of Mormon.
May I suggest you read Mormon General Authority, BH Robert's book "Studies of the Book of Mormon" He makes this same conclusion...
Mormonism may be the greatest thing ever invented in all the world...but if it was invented...it is not deserving of our time, talents or participation.
And now my comments for "Justin"
You said: But deep in my heart I have felt the Spirit tell me the Church is true, prophets are on the earth, and scripture is still being revealed. All this in addition to the knowledge God lives and His Son is my Saviour.
Justin...SO DID I. I knew with every fiber of my being that the church wa sll it claimed to be. that jsut goes to show you that our "feelings" can be manipulated. Let me ask you something. How do you explain away the testimonoes of those NOT of your church? Why are your feelings any more valid than those of say the Muslim who straps a bomb to his belt and blows himself up. He also KNOWS that his church is true. What about the evangelical who KNOWS with every fiber of his being that you are wrong and he is right...or the JW'b who also KNOWS. I know I know...they are wrong and you are right because the spirit has confirmed YOUR truth to you and Satan has deceived all of them with a false witness.
The bottom line is that human feelings can and are manipulated...the LDS church even has a department in one of its companies that creates "Emotional Fellings" in its commercials... did you know... “‘That that special feeling that you have about Joseph Smith being a true prophet? Well that’s been trademarked by Bonneville Communications; it’s called HeartSell®.’” check it out....
http://www.bonneville.com/?nid=32
Yes even the church KNOWS that human feelings can be manipulated for its purposes....
cr@ig...
Do us the favour of treating us here with some respect, we expect it from all our posters...we are not manipulated despite what you think. All contributors here are deeper thinkers than what you give us credit for. All are scholars in our chosen disciplines and all have a very rational background.
IT IS irrational to suggest JS wrote the BoM when you analyse it indepth. You probably are more than aware of his historical background AND his educative history. HOW you can claim that he wrote the BoM is beyond me...I prefer to hear the guys down at the local Apostolic Community who declare the devil wrote it.
Second, you claim that the same feeling we feel is that of the Muslim (or Terrorist). I can lay some claim to this being from outside the church. I know that at times in my life I felt the influence of the light of christ whilst out and about doing my thing in other religions. That much I can testify of. The feeling is very much associated in my opinion with that great call 'come follow me'. I don't think that good feelings are reserved solely for the church. I think that when you keep elements of the faith in GOD you will feel his influence. I cannot suggest that the Church Lays claim to spiritual insights and spiritual feelings period. Otherwise, why would people do anything good at all? Morals?
What I can suggest to you is that the feeling inside the Church with the Spirit is one of constant light...when you are keeping the commandments and progressing. You may not agree, and frankly, I don't care. I would've left the Church a long time ago taking it on face value. But the spiritual experiences I have had (of which I won't share for personal reasons) far surpass anything that you are going to say about manipulation of feelings....
I'm smiling sadly at the request that cr@ig 'show more respect'. Until his comment all I saw was a lot of active members making a long list of all the reasons why ex-members were to blame for their own apostacy: laziness, lack of faith, an unwillingness to believe counter arguments (with no acknowledgment that they may have done so and found them wanting), not enough prayer or scripture study, etc. There was a lot of disrespect shown to people like cr@ig, who have served faithfully and yet been unable to deny or ignore facts that do not correlate with their sense of logic or right.
The one reason no-one will ever dare to contemplate is that maybe these people just found out it isn't true. I understand why that possibility is denied, but the ones you put in its place are insulting, and yes, disrespectful.
I am right in the middle of this dilemma, and it looks to me like it IS going to mean I leave the church, and it has nothing to do with wanting to do things the church doesn't allow (I've pondered on each of these issues and I expect my lifestyle to change very little in this regard) and it is not a matter of lack of faith. Like Cr@ig described his former feelings, I love church. I love the people there and I can't imagine myself attending any other church. But the church also taught me to seek and value truth. If JS is not a prophet, then the BoM is not scripture (nor the D&C or the PoGP) and the restoration of the Gospel did not happen. I can't be at church pretending I believe something I no longer believe and the culture of church is that you need to be certain, to both know and to say that you know. Just think about all the times and places you are required to testify.
The only reason that I haven't yet made it official is because it's the most grievous decision I've ever made and I'm still reeling from the collapse of 'truths' I thought were unbreakable. It really hurts, and to have people talk like I must just be some lazy git who doesn't read her scriptures enough is adding insult to injury.
Whether or not you ever come to agree with me or cr@ig or anyone else who leaves the church is not important, but it would sure be nice if, instead of sitting here typing out your judgment on people who leave, you could just acknowledge that when it comes to the reasons for them doing so, you may just not have any idea what you're talking about.
I appreciate all the comments being made but I would just like to clear up one thing that Chosha said.
I think most people posting have a very good idea of "what we are talking about" when it concerns the reasons for people leaving the church. That is the whole point of this post. We have heard all the 'excuses', 'reasons', 'intellectual arguments', 'scriptural debates', 'doctrinal issues, and myths and it has not caused the response in us that these people claim it did to them.
I am not making light of any devastating decision that some may have made in there lives to leave the church. The problem is all these decisions never seem to have any aspect of "holy ghost", or prayer, or revelation involved. It is always something like, I read this thing about JS or BY and the church must be false.
What I cannot understand is how someone can read a questionable 'story' about the church and come to the conclusion that all other accounts that people have testified to be true must be false. There are only two accounts of history in the church, those that belonged to the church, and those that hated the church. It is one mans word against another. That is why there are ways by God provided to know which are right and which are wrong. It just seems like far to many people have no spiritual or faith based reason on deciding which one they though was right.
Lastly I have to comment on cr@ig's "rational" argument.
'Belief in Mormonism requires irrationality...it require the suspention of disbelief...'.
I really don't mean to single this out but I need to know:
Is it 'rational' that God created the heavens and the Earth? Or that 2 people named Adam and Eve started the entire population? Or that A man named Moses spoke to a burning bush, parted the read sea, and came up with ten ways that most people 1000's of years later try to live their life by? Is it ration to believe in a 'virgin pregnancy'? A son of God in a mortal body? An atonement? Or is it even rational to believe in a God?
No. So why then do we do it? Because FAITH requires more than rational thought!
Chosha,
My line 'show some respect' was to the overly directed comments made by Cr@ig towards certain members of the site. We don't mind people telling us that we are wrong in here or debating things with us, what I (as a moderator) won't appreciate is when people begin to attempt to belittle or attack with words attempting to make us out to be quite naive or typical mormons with no brains or something. That is why I posted that line, nothing to do with his arguments.
As for your comments I agree and if you read up at some of the words I said, you will see that I have put forward that 'SOME' people leave the church because they are confronted with information that they cannot reconcile spiritually. Call it what you want, I don't mind, but the way I see it is that like Andrew suggested, people hear differing accounts and get a little doubtful, then later leave.
Your decision is yours alone. What I do not appreciate is when people such as Cr@ig start telling us that what we are feeling and the spiritual experiences that we have had are contrived or somehow manipulated through a conspiracy within the church. That is a very blanket statement. Some of the most stark experiences I have had which I will not share here have been alone, in prayer and away from church or anyone do to with church. To suggest that these are not valid is not only frustrating, its also hurtful.
Putting this aside, we do not advocate judgements here and are sorry that you feel we are judging you in an improper light. The descriptions from the other members above are directed towards individual experiences that they have had themselves with apostate individuals. You are forgetting that we live (most of us) in Australia where the church is relatively obscure and in the darkness...meaning that we don't usually get the doctrinal apostates. Most here leave for commitment issues because its very much harder for us to live the gospel here than in say UTAH. We are confronted with the WORLD in a much more bold way.
Sorry you have been offended. Remember that we are only human, and our experiences with apostasy are very much different from those living in the US.
Chosha,
I just realised that you are from Australia too and that you may have taken further offense from my statement. Apologies for that. I am merely trying to suggest that the posts about are about experiences that members here have had with people leaving.
As I also suggested, I've noticed in my own life people leaving more for doctrinal concerns lately too.
As you are from Australia, I'm sure you have opinions on the politics of this nation. I encourage you to share with us on the other and forthcoming posts these and others on the politics of this country. This is what the blog was designed for to begin with...
OMG (gosh) I JUST experienced the spirit reading Nicko's post disclosing that you are all Aussies, a fact that I did not know when I stumbbled on this sight. (No disrespect intended)... I'm being serious!!
I served my mission in Sydney Australia...I absolutley LOVE Australia.
My sincere apologies if I in any way came off disrespectful to anyone, I was merely sharing my perspective from the so-called apostate's (a word I do not use to describe myself) view point.
Discovering that the church was not what it claimed to be has been very very painful. (my perspective and I understand that you do not agree with my viewpoint)
So where in OZ is everyone...if in Sydney area, I'm sure we have common friends.
I can't help but chuckle to myself as I read the many "postmormon" comments. It seems that an analogy may be apt.
If a person were considering divorce after finding out something horrible about their husband or wife, would they do well to speak to other divorcees? Or would they do well to speak to the source of their problems, and obtain assistance from professionals in the area?
It seems that the direction one turns determines the outcome.
As I have reviewed the commentary from the disenfranchised and estranged LDS, it appears that they have sought solace with one another - like minded individuals who will support and empathise. Perhaps turning towards those who could offer spiritual help and support (bishops, teachers, stake presidents, scriptures, words of prophets and so on) may have impacted on the final decisions many have made.
- ldsthingker
Cr@ig...
Interesting stuff. We are mostly from Queensland...but we are scattered across the nation now. One in Canberra, another in the greater Sydney area, whilst another is in the greater NSW area and myself in Brisbane...yeah I haven't moved yet....
ldsthinker...
your comments are interesting, but in my opinion, postmormons would consider that the 'search for truth' can't be resolved inside the church and would see us as being blind through what we are doing. We obviously don't agree with them, but we shouldn't judge them for their decisions. They exercised their choice (not agency - as Elder Bednar taught us) to leave, and as such we should respect that choice. I think that in places like UTAH, social cohesion and help to repair the gaping hole left by leaving the church in sociality is what Postmormons seek to overcome.
I KNOW it is hard for true believing active members of the church to believe that a former true believing active member of the church could come to a decision that the church is NOT what it claims to be and actually leave the church, resign or just walk away. Surly there must have been some sin, surly their faith and belief could NOT have been as deep as yours, or they weren’t as committed to the church or they secretly held desires to sin…because it HAD to be something, SOMETHING OTHER than the simple reality that the church is NOT what it claims to be.
I was a sixth generation Mormon…have held church callings from the simplest to the most responsible…I was NOT supposed to be the person to leave the church. I am/was immersed in the Utah Mormon culture. I paid my full tithes, I attended the Temple multiple times a month, I read my scriptures daily, I held family home evenings regularly…I STILL want the church to be true.
It was during my research that I encountered information that was not consistent with what I had been taught throughout my life as a 4 year seminary graduate and college institute graduate as well as being a full and active participant in the church since my birth. This is what caused me to start the questioning of my beliefs…conflicting information to the official stories. I admit that once the questioning began…once the crack in my testimony started, once I started to ask tough questions rather than placing them on the back burner of my mind, the wheels began to fall off. But can’t real truth stand up to questions and scrutiny?
I was no shallow enough to just leave….I fought to maintain my testimony…I DID have long and multiple visits with Bishops, Stake Presidents and YES even General Authorities. I spent time with official church apologist at F.A.R.M.S. as well…I have read volumes of church sponsored explanations for church anomalies…but in the end…not one person, no bishop, SP or GA could answer my questions….in the end the pieces of the puzzle would not fit together the church could not stand up to tough scrutiny. In the end my faith could not be sustained… “For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
The church is either what it claims to be or it is not…there is no middle ground…Joseph either saw God or he did not, the Book of Mormon is either a factual history of a band of Israelites that were the forefathers of the American Indians or it is not…Joseph either translated Abrahams writings from Egyptian Hieroglyphics into the Book of Abraham or he did not. Thomas Monson either talks with God or he does not. As I’ve said before the church may be the greatest thing ever invented by man, but if it was invented…it does not deserve our involvement…for then, it is nothing more than a damnable false hope.
We can certainly appreciate the lengths you went to Cr@ig, but I dare say that most would still consider that your spiritual conversion was somewhat limited. Personally however, I think that you did what you thought was right but couldn't find answers to those raging questions. There are some unanswerable ones for me and I'm sure many in here too, but I guess sometimes faith needs to step in and belief in essentially, past spiritual experiences which confirm to us that the truth is still in the LDS Faith.
Of course you'd have to conclude that my conversion was "somewhat limited" because the alternative is unacceptable to you Nicko...
But can you help me with these two questions?
If the church were NOT what it claimed to be...would you even want to know?
AND
If I had just arrived on earth...looking at all the religions of the world...how would you suggest I discover which churches were "false"...since all religions claim to be the true church...how would I know which churches were false?
BTW I already know how the LDS church tells us to know if it is true...but how whould I even know if it or any other church is false?
Endulge me...
cr@ig, you've done exactly what alot of people tend to do when reading these posts, got past the first line and then responded in a defensive manner. IF you read the rest of my post you would see that I totally acknowledged your search for the truth through study, etc. But what I suggested is that all of us have unanswerable questions which we turn back to our spiritual experiences to alleviate. I for one do not understand all that happens in the temple, but I know that the first time I entered the Celestial Room as a young man, I felt something beyond this world which cannot be reconciled by Psychology or Biology.
However I will endeavour to engage with you on this (and its indulge BTW). Your two questions are flawed and let me explain to you why. The first one presumes that I've never entertained the thought that the Church isn't true. Of course I have. As a convert, my whole attitude into entering the discussions was one of 'this church is Arrogant (my friend TB can back me up here)' and false. What I experienced however (mainly through reading the BoM) was a spiritual experience beyond words. I was also questioned in the very first week of my mission by an anti-mormon on this church being true or not. I couldn't answer and almost went home. However what ensued was an experience again beyond this world.
So yes I've entertained the notion that the LDS faith is false, but beyond the five senses and definitely from GOD, I've had these fears alleviated.
Your second question assumes two things. Firstly that all churches claim to hold the truth. This is incorrect. Many Christian religions don't claim to have the 'only truth' over others. Many Eastern Religions including Bahai don't claim to be the only truth. Granted the biggest, Islam, does claim some authority over the truth, but not entirely. So I think if you were an alien here on Earth, you'd find a limited number claiming the 'right path' to God.
Second, what sort of a question is this anyway? I've always disliked the whole 'if I were an alien coming here to Earth' question because it takes a great deal of the human process out of it and suggests that the search for the truth is an entirely rational and calculative process. Meaning that you'd sift through all the choices and the rationally decide who is right and who is wrong. If you were to do this, would it result in any decision at all? Speaking from experience as one who sought for the truth, its entirely impossible to decide without some doubt that you've chosen incorrectly. I've studied with JW's and other religions before, and only one declared to me to go to GOD and ask him if it was right or not. Granted this is my own anecdotal evidence and certainly not a blanket statement, but its my own. I don't know why I managed to find the LDS faith, I suppose God granted me the desires of my heart. All I know is that as opposed to all other religions I encountered, the LDS faith gave me a spiritual insight (not just doctrine) which was stark enough to convince me of the truth.
Cr@ig I'm not judging you for leaving the Church. You obviously had some serious questions that didn't get answered for you. But let me ask you now, how do you reconcile those spiritual experiences you had whilst in the church? Was it just some psychological phenomena? Self-fulfilling prophecies?
Hi Cr@ig,
I've found your thoughts quite interesting, and thank you for them. Earlier, I think I posted something to the effect that all of the ex-Mormons I know (which admittedly is not a huge, or representative, sample) that take issue with church history/doctrine had some other problem with the church also (eg bad experiences with people, calling stuff). Reading what you've had to say on this thread, I got the impression that you were quite different, that you simply came across historical/doctrinal problems that caused you to question your belief system.
But today I clicked on your name to get to your blogger profile, and there you write: "Following a personal indiscretion, for which I took full responsibility, I turned to the church for help, the help I received was excommunication. This reality forced me to reexamine my basis for belief in Mormonism and research my many doubts."
So, at the very least, by your own admission, your ex-communication was a catalyst for you to re-examine your faith. And it appears you took some issue with that Church decision. Frankly, to be so outspoken on this thread about how you were, like us, a fully active member, but to neglect this information, seems a bit disingenuous to me. After all, to the best of my knowledge the active LDS participants here are in full fellowship. Surely you'd agree that, according to LDS theology, being in a state of ex-communication is not exactly a spiritual peak? Now, it's all entirely your business what parts of your life you divulge, but I think it’s a problem if you get selective about what parts you divulge if they, intentionally or not, serve to bolster your argument. You’ve emphasised that you were ‘just like us’ (ie, active, believing members), but that doesn't seem to have been entirely the case?
You even said in your first post that you ‘were not offended’ prior to leaving the church, but that doesn’t seem to gel with your feelings about the ex-communication decision, unless I’m misunderstanding what you’ve written.
In any case, it’s actually my personal view is that church members could do more to understand those members who take issue with historical or doctrinal matters (even if, in my view, there are generally other contributing factors). I think it’s fair to say that the average postmormon.org participant DOES know more church history than the average active member, and simply saying that people are spiritually lacking or reading anti-Mormon material is a bit shallow. The fact is that some parts of Church history ARE hard to understand, and I think we’re best to engage with those who find problems, rather than dismiss them. I do sympathise with those grappling for real answers but feel that they are rebuffed.
Keen to hear your thoughts, Cr@ig.
Apostate...Excommunication…Sinner… and other emotionally charged terms or words used within the LDS context are designed to solicit an emotional response within the Mormon community with the intended purpose of causing active members to distance themselves from the likes of myself. Remember your last temple recommend interview?
General Conference, Sunday School and yes even seminary is full of sad stories of the consequences befalling those who fail to live up to the church’s dictates. Who among us can’t recall the stories of Thomas B. Marsh and his pride over milk strippings or Oliver Cowdary’s excommunication for what? Pride? It’s never so simple in reality. The historical record suggests a much more complicated reality to both of these excommunications. As it does with my story.
I was a sitting member of my stake’s high council at the time of my excommunication. I was an active believing member of the church, held a temple recommend, paid my full tithes etc etc. I did have a lapse in judgment for which I took full responsibility. I NEVER broke my temple covenants. As a good member of the church having faith in the principle of repentance and believing in the process, I confessed my (sins) lapse in judgment because I did have faith in Christ. I entered the process fully aware of the consequences taking full responsibility for my lapse. I have always been a sensitive sort, and felt great guilt for not living up to the high standard I had set for myself. I fully expected the process to be both difficult and painful. I knew it would take me to the very depths of my ability to survive. I submitted myself having faith that the church WAS what it claimed to be.
I had sat in on many so called courts of love, but nothing in my previous experience had prepared me for what I encountered. The process and realization of excommunication to me, a true believer, was without question the most humanly painful experience of my life.
As I was engaged in working to regaining membership in the church I felt a need to resolve some doubts and questions that had sat on my mental self since my days in Australia while serving my mission. Things that just didn’t add up. I knew that I had to get past the many questions I had accumulated over the years. I fully expected that they would easily be resolved and I could quickly regain the prize.
As I immersed myself in my research, I was to be sadly disappointed…for as I entered the rabbit hole…I soon discovered that my life was to be changed forever…and not in the way I had expected. I soon discovered the churches explanations for these issues were based on very weak arguments. All my life I had been taught that those who fought the church used lies and distortions to support their claims….my studies showed something quite different…it was the church that had been whitewashing, distorting and lying.
So yes I was excommunicated…isn’t that convenient. I fit the exact profile the church uses to have you reject my message (not that I have a message mind you) Shoot the messenger! BECAUSE I was excommunicated you can NOW take solace knowing that anything I may have to offer can be rejected whole cloth….for you can’t trust an evil excommunicated sinful apostate can you? Wow…don’t those emotionally charged words in and of themselves qualify my comments for rejection?
Discount if you must…reject if you will…but don’t use my excommunication as an excuse. As I’ve stated, I WANTED the church to be everything that it claims to be. The pain I feel is in discovering that I laid my life in front of neighbors and friends to have them sift through my life only to later discover that they were in fact only men functioning in a man-made religion. I was sold a lie.
I am NOT bitter over being excommunicated….although I did not feel going in that it was within the realm of possibilities based on my experience with church courts…but I am pained for being duped by a religion that claims to be God’s only true church on the face of the earth…yet is SO FLAWED as to not have any entitlement to being what it claims to be.
So yes you can dismiss my assertions…. After all that is what the church hopes you would do. They don’t want you to ask hard questions that lead to difficult answers, to do balanced personal research involving both sides or read the REAL history. After all the church is true, right? What else matters?
Cr@ig,
I'm not sure you get TB's point. You've gone ahead and attempted to defend yourself wholeheartedly without looking to see that TB wasn't actually attacking you wholeheartedly. He was in fact critiquing your story on a literal level. What happened to you in the Ex-Communication process must have been quite awful I feel especially because you seemed to love the church so much. However, the premises that TB brought up were more than a little concerning. Your story was in my mind one of a full serving member of the Church with a huge amount of spirituality but couldn't get resolve on some matters so decided to do so serious investigation. What TB is suggesting is that you weren't a full standing member at the time of your questioning which does throw some doubt (even you can admit this) on your story.
I'm not suggesting for a second that your concerns are not real, but had you divulged the truth up front about your status leading up to your questioning, it would not have looked like you were trying to 'up the ante' on your story..so to speak.
Again Cr@ig, I don't want you to think for a second that I don't believe you have real concerns, nor do I not believe you when you say that you want the church to be true. However, you must admit the mind of the Mormon soul is such that when we hear of your standing, we start thinking...
Again however I think I've stepped away from the major concern that I have. How do you reconcile those spiritual experiences that you've had in the past? Assuming of course that you have (and this isn't an attack because I know some church members never have) had some spiritual insights/experiences/feelings?
Cr@aig, I'd suggest you're the one getting a bit emotive here, particularly with words like this: "BECAUSE I was excommunicated you can NOW take solace knowing that anything I may have to offer can be rejected whole cloth….for you can’t trust an evil excommunicated sinful apostate can you? Wow…don’t those emotionally charged words in and of themselves qualify my comments for rejection?Discount if you must…reject if you will…but don’t use my excommunication as an excuse."
I never suggested you were 'evil' or 'sinful', and never referred to you as an 'apostate' (personally, I don't much care for the term). I simply pointed out that, by your own admission elsewhere, your ex-communication was a catalyst in you losing your faith, but that you had given a different impression on this thread.
Now, I don't hold dogmatically to the view that church leaders always make the right decision, and it does sound, based on what you've said, that the ex-communication was a bit over the top. But in that scenario, surely you'd be pretty upset, right? I know I would be. So surely that serves as some kind of catalyst to re-examine faith??
So my view is that you had a closer look at what at problematic areas of church history during a period in which you felt a bit jaded. I'm not suggesting you were just a wayward sinner who lost his way. I know you disagree with my assessment, but I'd equally disagree with your assessment of me that, as an active member, I'm unwilling to contemplate the church not being true, and thus disregard the church's 'lies'. Now, I understand and respect your view, I just don't agree with it. But I'd hope we can disagree in an agreeable manner.
For what it's worth, I do know a fair bit of church history (Fawn Brodie sits in my bookshelf), and I'd agree with you that things like polygamy, polyandry and BOM translation are difficult to reconcile with the simpler message we got growing up. It's just been my experience that it IS possible to reconcile. I know you think I'm probably fooling myself, and I can't prove that I'm not, but it's what I believe.
It sounds like it's be an awfully tough journey for you, and best of luck with finding peace, wherever you find it.
This thread should NOT be about me… I am too flawed in the Mormon view to have any credibility. Was I being disingenuous by NOT disclosing my entire life and confirming all of your preconceived notions of the stereotypical apostate? Probably, but not intentionally…I have no agenda. I had so much belief in the church that I was willing to lay my membership on the sacrificial alter. On my own blog (easily reached through my postings here) I am quite forthcoming in my views…and history…it was NOT my intent to misinform or hide anything…my history is easily available. Had I wanted to do that I would have posted anonymously. However having said that, I fear that in trying to dispel the pigeonholing I found here, I have only confirmed them. Drat! Foiled again!
I stumbled upon this blog (I don’t even remember how now) I felt that the thread was presuming and stereotypical in its portrayal of “so called apostates”. So I posted a clarification to help dispel the typecasting.
Having found this blog, I wanted to correct notions that I felt were not giving an actuate portrayal of the real “active members” that are leaving the church in droves. I personally know of Stake Presidents, Bishops, former Mission Presidents (one who left the church while serving his mission) and even a Temple President…all who have left the church for the same exact reasons that I have (well I was exed and then couldn’t return based on my discoveries). These irreconcilable problems are REAL and they go to the core of Mormonism’s claims to having God’s authority on earth.
It is my belief that the church uses stereotypes to diminish the message of so called apostates. When was the last time you ever heard a general authority state that apostates leave the church over doctrinal issues? Ummm…NEVER! According to the church, we all left over the stereotypical reasons of sin, desire to sin, being offended, or just plain laziness. (Although I’m sure there are those who do qualify for these labels)
I view myself as a former believing member who discovered troubling information about the church that could not be reconciled. This information broke my heart and still pains me. This alone caused me to lose belief in Mormonism and it claims to truth. I believe that any honest person who made a similar investigation would come to the same conclusion…irrespective of past activity…because these things CAN NOT be reconciled.
Nicko...you asked how I reconcile my spiritual experiences (Yes I had them) I will return and report.
I freely admit that the primary basis for my loss of believe in Mormonism is that I took it so blindly.
I accepted every pronouncement from church authorities spoken at conference, written in the Ensign, or published in their many books…Hook, Line and Sinker.
When the church and church scriptures taught me that Adam left the garden 6,000 ago I literally believed it. When I was taught by the general authorities that there was no death on earth prior to Adams exit from Eden, I accepted it as an essential doctrine for the justification of the need for an atonement.
When Spencer Kimble, declared in conference that every native American from Alaska to the tip of South America and the Islands of the Pacific were descendants of Father Lehi…I never questioned. The Prophet had spoken; the thinking had already been done.
When the Book of Mormon established Noah’s universal flood and the Tower of Babel as real historical events I accepted this whole cloth. I now find each of these claims unbelievable and unsubstantiatable.
While serving my mission in Australia, I had many so called spiritual experiences. One that stands out in my mind involved a book that shook me to the core. An investigator had given me a copy of Gerald and Sandra Tanners”Mormonism: Shadow or Reality?” This was considered Hard Core anti Mormon stuff at the time and probably still is. Of course having a firm testimony of the gospel and knowing that real truth can stand up to any scrutiny, I accepted the challenge to read the book and get back with these people. Unfortunately, the book had an opposite effect on me than I had hoped for; it exposed the ugly underbelly of Mormonism in a manner of which I had never been informed. The book showed photo copies of changes to revelations from God in the D&C, additions inserted to God’s so called words made to enhance Joseph Smiths claims to authority, eye witness accounts of Joseph’s drinking and tobacco use long after the Word of Wisdom had been revealed. You see I was of that generation when Joseph had been made into a man-god (seemingly without fault) something I now know not be true…he was very much a man with all the complicated personality traits and flaws all humans have.
There were lists prophecies made by Joseph that NEVER came true, even one involving his prophecy regarding church members teaching the inhabitants of the Moon (yeah I know its bizarre, but he actually did prophecy such things) he even went on to describe their dress (like Quakers) so arrogantly typical of Joseph now when I look back. All the information was documented from church records and accounts…and it blew me out of the water.
In a matter of minutes, I was rocked to the core of my being. I literally crumbled to the floor in a fetal position and shivered…during that HOT Australian summer day.
I KNEW the church was true…I had felt the spirit so many times in my life…but this information was so detrimental to the truth claims of the church that if found true could lead to only one logical conclusion…the church could not be what it claims to be and these things also be true… at the same time.
I retreated to another room…and fell to my knee’s… Dear God, my Father I pleaded…if ever there was a need for you in my life it is now. I have lovingly served you tirelessly and I have asked for nothing in return…but dear Father…I need you now. These things cannot be true AND the church be what it claims to be. So I am pleading with you, this is what I need from you. If this book is true…you need do nothing…leave it where I let it fall. BUT if it is NOT true…then I plead dear Father, knowing that You have all power to do all things…I ask You to Move that book off my bed and place it across the room to the opposite side of my room and place it on my companions bed. I know it is a sin to ask for a sign…but I NEED this…
I then concluded the most earnest prayer of my life and returned to my room. (I might add that my comp had been in another room studying during this entire incident, he was oblivious to what I had been going through). I fully expected to return to my room and find the book laying exactly where I had left it (my faith had been so devastated…where upon I would have packed my suitcase and gone home from my mission a broken man) But as I walked into the room…the book was NOT where I had left it… God in His wisdom had performed my own personal miracle. As I entered the room…the book was on the other side of the room sitting on my companion’s bed. (I know, gives you goose bumps doesn’t it) I again fell to my knees thanking God for answering my most fervent prayer…all doubts left…I was filled with the most wonderful spirit I had ever experienced in my life…I knelt there in my room crying, thanking God for His love and knew that the contents of that book was filled with NOTHING but lies and distortions. I went on to serve a wonderful mission serving as District leader, Zone Leader and as Assistant to the President. I returned from my mission with honor.
So why hasn’t this most powerful of spiritual experiences sustained me? Because in the end the claims made by the Tanners had in fact been true all along…but what about that book…didn’t it move across the room? Well yes it did. It turns out that while I had been praying my companion had come into our room , picked up the book, looked at it, then sat it back where he had been sitting…on his own bed.
But couldn't the argument could be made that GOD prompted my companion to do that… Yes of course...that is what magical thinking does to a person...at least that’s what I believed at the time…but IF the Tanner material IS factual (and it is) can the church be true and the Tanners be telling the truth as well? Personally, it would be equivalent to having the Sun rise both in the East and the West at the same time.
So Nicko, based on my personal experience I’ve concluded that human emotions are a bad device to base truth claim on…Why? Because human emotions can be manipulated, we can deceive ourselves when using the so called prompting of the spirit…it just is not a valid standard upon which to measure truth claims on. And the magical thinking used in the church also distorts reality.
Hi Cr@ig,
Just to clarify, I didn't have any 'pre-conceived notions' about church members who leave, despite what you suggest. I've just merely made the observation that amongst the ex-LDS I know who have had problems with history/doctrine, there has always been another catalyst. Now, it's not a big sample (only around 9-10 people), so it may not be representative of the broader post-mormon community, but it is a piece of evidence, as opposed to a notion that someone fed me.
If your frustration is directed towards me, I don't quite understand it. I don't consider post-mormons 'sinners' or 'apostates', I just view them as members who couldn't reconcile what they learnt about the church, which in my view stems from a lack of spiritual understanding. And I'm sure that all those post-mormons, like yourself, think I'm not willing to contemplate that the church isn't true, so I'm not being totally honest with myself. That's fine - we all disagree, but I'm not looking to upset anyone over it. But we both have to accept that while we know the same things about history/doctrine, it leads us to different paths.
As I've mentioned previously, I'm actually more on your side when it comes to correcting simplified, false notion amongst active members that all that leave are merely sinners. I agree that it's far more complicated than that, and it's something I think about a lot, given some very close friends are in a similar position to you.
But while you appear to believe that the church as an institution has these shortcomings when dealing with people such as yourself, I'd see it as the shortcomings of individuals within the church, who are generally well-meaning but nonetheless make (often significant) mistakes. But I'm not trying to convince you of this, just pointing out why I believe as I do.
Cr@ig,
Can I just point out clearly that this is not a personal attack on you so please refrain from making it so. We are merely pointing out that your story takes on a different connotation when you throw in that you were in fact not a standing member. We never assumed to tar you with the same brush at all as those who apostate through sin or lack of commitment.
Your experience is interesting, but dare I say, not the sort of spiritual experience I was really looking for when I came to you on that.
Let me share with you a similar story, and I do so anxiously knowing that such spiritual experiences are not best given over the internet, nor for public consumption.
When I was a missionary, in my first area, I met a woman (remember I was probably 2.5years into my church membership at this time) who questioned me about all sorts of historical and doctrinal issues. She said basically I was going to hell. It scared the heck out of me.
I returned home and like you got on my knees to pray. I had received various spiritual experiences before which confirmed me to the truth, but never had I been confronted with things I'd not heard/ nor had I be told because of my belief, I'd be going to hell.
So I prayed...for so long I believe my companion went to sleep before I got up. I prayed to know if the Church was true. Simple question, requiring a simple answer. I received nothing. I snuggled into bed (it was Timaru...very cold Winter in NZ) and began to question whether I should be there. Because of my no answer, I began to think that it was time to call the Mission Pres in the morning and tell him I wanted to go home. That is how scared I was. I really didn't want to be there anymore. If what that woman suggested was true, even in the slightest, I didn't want any part of the mission anymore. I wanted to be home, and sharing time with family/friends and my girlfriend of 3 years who I'd left behind.
Not long after I made this decision, I rolled myself over to the wall and began to feel like an idiot. My confusion was so frustrating. It was about this time that I felt something overcome me. Its not a feeling I can adequetly describe. It was like at one stage I was floating with a extreme peace that was held deep inside and flowed through my whole body. My conscience was alleviated, and I knew the Church was true.
This is only part of the experience I had that night. The rest I feel like I shouldn't share for some reason. I don't know why. But I do want you to know, that at that moment, any doubts or fears or anxieties were taken from me and I was filled with a love and peace that only comes from God.
This is the sort of experience I was discussing earlier Cr@ig. The spirit filling your soul with joy unspeakable. I guess my colleagues who are disaffected will begin to quote all manners of Psychological evidence to suggest it was 'self-inflicted' or 'constructed' within me or worse yet, 'invented' by me to justify my position in the church, but I can tell you Cr@ig, it wasn't.
Now I'm not saying I'm overly special or anything, but these are the types of experiences which keep me going. I read and have read alot of damning things, most are emotively motivated on hatred against the church, but in the end, I trust my relationship with God more than I do with man.
Anyway, we are not judging you Cr@ig in here. This post was to discuss what I've seen as a slight increase in my anecdotal evidence towards people leaving on doctrinal reasons rather than commitment or sin.
Well , I initially posted to this blog because of Justin's comments wherein he sai